Fund Stuff - Episode 4 - Nick Fogle from

Episode 4 of Fund Stuff we're talking with Nick Fogle from about legal structures, the importance of having your tech organized to make handoffs easier, and what it's like building a company after a successful exit.

Fund Stuff - Episode 4 - Nick Fogle from
Episode 4 of Fund Stuff  we're talking with Nick Fogle from about legal structures, the importance of having your tech organized to make handoffs easier, and what it's like building a company after a successful exit.



Andrew Pierno: [00:00:00] Hey, this is Andrew Pierno. And welcome to Fund  Stuff, episode four today, we're talking with Nick Fogel. He sold a company called Wavve. And I wanted to ask him about any of the kind of lessons learned from going through a sale I refer to it as the second time around a lot throughout the episode, but it's actually his third in Baird and another gentleman that they partnered with. But we go through a lot of legal stuff and none of the things that we say should be construed as legal advice.

[00:00:30]Do your own research. But we talk about. The ways that we've set things up the way that he has set his new company up and some other ideas around how to get help for this stuff. Cause I know it's not quite as easy as going on Upwork and finding some random contractor to do stuff, but we Nick has some good ideas on how to find good people to get this kind of legal work figured out at the beginning so that you don't pay the  sometimes hefty tax burden at the at the sale. So with all the disclosures out of the way, [00:01:00] please enjoy my conversation with Nick Fogle.

[00:01:04] So I'm here today with Nick Fogle he is one of the co-founders of his new company Churn Key, but we're going to be talking about the sale of wave and the stuff that he's learned, setting up his new company this time as a second time founder. And yeah, let's get into it.

[00:01:19] So I'd love to just start with, are there any kind of let's start with company formation stuff, since we were just chatting about that before this. What are some of the, how did you guys set up your first company way that got sold? Was that just an LLC?

[00:01:33] Nick Fogle: [00:01:33] Yeah. And I'll level with you. I'm an attorney. So none of this is legal advice. If anybody's listening it really is going to be specific to your situation. But yeah. Even with the legal background the company that we had before wave I made all the mistakes that you could possibly make, even with the legal training the way.

[00:01:49] And then inevitably like that company, nothing happened. We were lucky that company fizzled out, but what we built the became well waive, we just created a South Carolina LLC. Let me talk about the [00:02:00] rationale, cause I know there's a lot of people out there that prefer the C Corp. It's more predictable for getting venture money and there are some tax benefits to do that.

[00:02:09] If you're a founder and you are going to stay there for a set number of years, So for wave the LLC was was ideal because it's very easy to set up. You can file a form with the secretary of state for pretty much any state. And it's a small fee, simple application, as long as you don't have a felony, like you're going to get approved and then you have your you're insulated from for most liability that could arise.

[00:02:33]You can get your bank account and everything like that. We didn't want a C Corp at this point because we didn't think this was going to be anything like we didn't think wave would turn into a million dollar a year business. We thought best case scenario, like maybe this is something that can pay our mortgages, like a side project indie hacker thing.

[00:02:52]And this was like before bootstrapping was as popular as it is. These days it might make more sense depending on the company, but yeah, that's how we started and I never really [00:03:00] felt the need to to change our filing status or incorporation. There could be some better, depending on what happens with the capital gains tax this year, that would may really come back to bite me.

[00:03:09]I actually don't think we meet the linked, like the duration criteria though for the qualified tactics.

[00:03:14] Andrew Pierno: [00:03:14] Yeah, it will be interesting to see what happens wise and how tax treatment might impact some people. But for you guys with that, LLC, doing a C Corp, I have a C Corp for a project and payroll taxes just for myself, are. Extremely unpalatable. I'll put it that way.

[00:03:33] Nick Fogle: [00:03:33] It's a Delaware or a different state.

[00:03:36] Andrew Pierno: [00:03:36] I foolishly did a California C court for one of the worst. It's the worst. Yeah, I'm in California. There's no two ways about me paying California, but yeah

[00:03:46] Nick Fogle: [00:03:46] but this is like what you do with start. Like you, you don't know any better. Like I said, I paid six figures to get a legal education.

[00:03:52] Took the bar exam, became an attorney, even did some transactional law. And like I went out and I made the worst entity choice. I could have [00:04:00] initially we didn't even have a business entity when we were starting this first project. We didn't have any wealth. So I guess I was less concerned about somebody suing us at that point.

[00:04:06] But the, so let me just talk, you guys through this, like the mistake we made. So we had, we didn't have a bank account. We were just funding it ourselves, which a lot of founders do. So there was like, even once we created the business entity, there was no partition. Like you could easily Pierce that corporate veil and be like, this business entity is a sham.

[00:04:25]These guys are just paying it out of their own checkbooks. So that was another thing that was like, like I should have known this and a lot of people probably get into that situation and, unless you have an advisor or somebody that's done it before, that's step one, create a business entity.

[00:04:38]And then create your bank account. Like you've got to do those two things in down the road that could really cause a lot of. Yeah. I actually got advised to create a C Corp for a number of different reasons.

[00:04:53] Andrew Pierno: [00:04:53] And again, you said it at the top and it bears repeating, like this is not legal advice, but we software in particular, [00:05:00] it's very important to get some guidance around what constitutes like a capital gain sale and what does not constitute a capital gains sale.

[00:05:08] And one of the, again, not legal advice, et cetera, but one of the ways, as far as I understand. To guarantee that there is a cap gains treatment at the end of all this, if you do get acquired is to just have the acquiring company buy the shares of a C corporation. And that becomes very, that is very clearly a capital gains event versus, a lot of the stuff that we've done, for example our asset sales.

[00:05:32]And so that is definitely. Built the software, not necessarily automatically a cap gains treatment. However, if you buy the software and then resell it, even as an asset, just a pure asset sale that can get some kind of capital gains treatment. Consult with your people, all that stuff, but that's that took me a lot of legal conversations and a few grand to figure out.

[00:05:54] So there you go.

[00:05:55]Nick Fogle: [00:05:55] Yeah. That's that's great because we had the same thing Where, like we listened to an advisor [00:06:00] and this advisor like meant, he meant well, but he also didn't understand that we were not, this was our first company, it was called you talk sports. It was like clubhouse.

[00:06:07]Back in 2016, before audio was really popular. The only differences we didn't have live streaming, it was like Reddit, for audio. Really cool. We had a lot of people sign up. The business, never went anywhere. It wasn't something that we could monetize. Particularly because we couldn't raise VC money, but our advisor at the time, like just had no idea that we were totally inept and incapable of raising VC money.

[00:06:26] He was like, you guys, the reason you're not being taken seriously is because you're not a Delaware C Corp. You need to do that. And then make sure it's clear when you're having these conversations. We live in, little Charleston, South Carolina. We don't live in the bay area, but we're a Delaware.

[00:06:37]It ended up that we had all these huge franchise taxes we had to pay and then like we've forgotten to file something or maybe it was like, an issue with disillusion where we didn't dissolve that company properly. And think Delaware's probably still after us. I hope nobody from Delaware's listening.

[00:06:51]But yeah so actually that's why we did a LLC. The next time was because the C Corp process was such a nightmare. And [00:07:00] we tried to get one of these E council guys. I think it was like one of these, I don't know if it was rocket lawyer or something like that. What we should have done is gotten a local attorney, which is what we ended up doing before we sold wave that specializes in incorporation and texts.

[00:07:15] And they could have helped us to avoid a lot of those mistakes. And for anybody listening, I can't, I cannot emphasize that enough. Like you can pay two 50, maybe $500 max to just sit down with an attorney and have a consult and explain your business what your intention is for that business.

[00:07:30] And they can help to recommend that what structure is best because an LLC is awesome. It's easy to set up lots of benefits to running as LLC, but. If you're a certain type of business that wants to raise venture money, or if you want certain tax treatment down the road, you're going to be much better off creating a C Corp.

[00:07:47]Andrew Pierno: [00:07:47] There are indie hacker versions of accountants and lawyers that are just starting out and they're young and they're hungry and they're trying to set up a business just like you.

[00:07:55] And they're willing to work with you on stuff. And it took me a long time to get a good accountant [00:08:00] to get a good like legal team. But all these guys are just entrepreneurs themselves and they get that we're all hustling together. And so you don't have to go to an H and R block.

[00:08:08]That's, I don't know. That's not that's not what you're getting into. You can find like good, cool people that are really out there hustling and they'll work with you. So it doesn't have to be crazy expensive.

[00:08:19]Nick Fogle: [00:08:19] The great thing about it too, is that it can be very convenient if you find it like UpCounsel is a great one that I recommend now.

[00:08:24]I used UpCounsel. I had a issue with another company I was involved with like equity treatment and I had to, it was a very complex issue with securities. And I was able to get on UpCounsel. I had, my kid was being born like the same day. So I was like super stressed out. I was like, I need somebody to talk to you today about to go on paternity leave.

[00:08:41] I got to get this thing figured out. So I hired like a top tier, like New York securities, lawyer had been doing it for 20 years and I paid them like, I don't know, 300, $400 for two hours of his time and like a detailed review of everything I did. Again, if you aren't. Taking your startup or your business seriously, like it's worth spending four or 500 [00:09:00] bucks and even go onto something like UpCounsel and identifying an attorney that would meet your needs.

[00:09:05] Andrew Pierno: [00:09:05] Yeah. And I don't want to keep laboring on this legal stuff. So I feel like we keep having a dance around really saying what we actually want to say about it. But the I will say to that, that on the Seaport thing, It's very easy to spend five years at a company like a startup. And if you're even thinking about that qualified small business thing you might want to consider a C Corp, which I didn't for a long time because of the complexity of managing the thing.

[00:09:30] And California's of noxious about basically everything LLC or C Corp, but it's very easy to just be like three years into a project and. Boom. If you have a C Corp, if you're almost to that, five-year mark for the qualified small business. I don't know . Kinda cool too.

[00:09:46] Nick Fogle: [00:09:46] It's the T the tax code just makes me angry. Cause I think about it. Yeah. Really like how much different is the C Corp structure like that? The intent of the people that are working in it, the small business and the C Corp and a lot of secrets, it's not a publicly traded company it's like [00:10:00] going to be closely held.

[00:10:00]And if that's your intent I could rail about the tax code for a long time, but yeah. And I'll just give, I'll add my counterpoint with the with LLCs. I think a lot of times I will recommend. People will consider LLC again, I never tell them you need to do this. I say you should look into an LLC because what I find is a lot of young founders are really eager and want to get started and what they'll do, they'll just kick the can down the road.

[00:10:24] And they'll never incorporate, they'll never have any kind of liability protection contractual protection, all of that nice umbrella that you get with that easy LLC. So I typically recommend people who are or I'll tell people like you should consider LLC. If they are, a small planning to do a small lifestyle type business, something that's like a passive income play, because look like with wave.

[00:10:43]A lot of our profits were profit distributions through a K one. And having that ability to have the partnership tax treatment is really nice. And what we would do, this is a a hack that we learned as time went on is we each have our own LLC. It's like a personal LLC that we [00:11:00] can do whatever we want.

[00:11:01] I did some consulting through mine and also owned wave through my LLC, but it opted for an S-corp election through the LLC. And this is a really nice loophole that they haven't closed yet. I keep saying they're going to close it, but the s-corp loop hole  people refer to it, you can avoid a lot of the a lot of the tax burden by paying yourself a very small wage through the S-corp and then the rest comes out as a K one distribution. So that was something that we did with wave. It was we didn't get some of the, that, liquidation event benefits that we'd get if we had done the C Corp. But yeah. Over the course of wave the profit distributions and the more favorable tax scheme, we were able to get through the LLC structure and like the flexibility to pay ourselves what we wanted through this simple, LLC style, partnership structure.

[00:11:44] I think that had a lot of benefits. So those are some more complicated, deep dives to talk to the accountant about. Or I talked to your legal advisor about.

[00:11:51] Andrew Pierno: [00:11:51] And switching gears here a little bit, I want to get off the legal stuff and maybe no, I, we could do a whole episode on that, but I would [00:12:00] love to hear some of the other learnings that you've brought into this second go around, so to speak after having gone through an actual sale, because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about like, Actually goes down when you sell your company.

[00:12:13]Some of it's, some of it's totally unsurprising, it's like very long and very boring. And there's a lot of paperwork and a lot of like boxes to check, but I think some of the pieces are some of the pieces of feedback that you've probably got or intuited have brought you to make certain decisions about this new company that you maybe wouldn't have made or couldn't have known about. Had you not just gone through this process.

[00:12:35]Nick Fogle: [00:12:35] Yeah, it's you're always learning with it's something like a CO2. I generally had an idea of like how it was going to go down, but it's like when you decide to get a new car, like you want to go out and you research and you learn everything about the new car, like you thought you knew something about this model of the car, but then like you're going to put money down.

[00:12:51] Like you've got skin in the game and you're gonna learn all that. That's how the sale was for me. It was always this. This far off goal. And I generally knew we do an asset [00:13:00] sale probably and try to get as much treated for long-term capital gains treatment as we could.

[00:13:05] And, just the general outline, but yeah, like just going through it, we learned so much, and there are a few things I would probably do a little different, we lucked out and we did a lot of things. Right.

[00:13:13] If I could rewind the clock though. So wave was like our first successful company and first successful exit.

[00:13:20] But we did, we had this other company before wave called Utah sports. It was basically this media product we made that was like an early precursor to clubhouse. And like I said already, we made every mistake you can make, would that compete literally every mistake. And we, the product we made was good though.

[00:13:38] Like it was good tech and we sold that. We actually sold the assets from that first visit. To and acquire. And so during that process, I learned and a lot about the tech and how difficult it can be too move technology. If somebody is going to buy your technical assets like how do you build something to sit?

[00:13:56] Like, how do you have it, your infrastructure and everything else planned. And [00:14:00] like what credit cards don't watch, which accounts like, if you're going to have to switch out future, like you better not have a personal credit card anywhere you better not have. You better not have your cards mixed up or domains in the wrong places.

[00:14:09] So going through that was really valuable. So by the time we were like, seriously building weight and we were at like maybe around 50,000 monthly recurring revenue. We started talking about the sale again let's think about selling this company because it's on a great trajectory. So we took a summer and me and one of our partners, Rob Moore, We spent three or four months just refactoring everything and just making sure everything was nice and isolated.

[00:14:34] And so that was like the technical side. And that made it really, if we hadn't done that, I would still be trying to transfer tech for wave. Like we had so many code bases, so many pieces of infrastructure that we hadn't touched in a long time that, run Cron jobs and things like that.

[00:14:49]Like it would have been a, an utter nightmare. Like maybe the deal would've fell apart during due diligence or something. But I think going through that once before made me very well aware of like how time consuming it can be [00:15:00] if you're not prepared for that. And also like just making sure our accounts were in order and our bank accounts were like clean because that stuff, we knew that stuff was going to have to be audited.

[00:15:08] I think if we had to do it again. So we spent a lot of times, a lot of time talking to brokers. And this kind of goes into the mechanics of the, so maybe less than the getting a company ready to sell. But I don't think we I don't think we ever imagined that we were going to do it ourselves. We thought we would hire a broker and the broker would do everything for us.

[00:15:27] So we might've become a little too lackadaisical with our target off like our target asking price. We had a general idea of what we want. And we had like pretty rough financials. Like I'm not an accountant or a CPA, like I'm a finance nerd and had a lot of spreadsheets and things that I worked on with, future cash flows and projections.

[00:15:45]I think I would spend more time on that, getting that more formalized. And when we made up our minds that we were like willing to entertain conversations to sell, I think it would go much more smoothly if like we knew what our targets. And had all [00:16:00] agreed on that beforehand. Like all the partners agreed on it and then really only take meetings that were serious enough to do that because we talked to so many people and we get to the end of the call, everything would be going and we'd make mistakes.

[00:16:15] Not being clear enough that we were not going to entertain anything lower. And we had a few people who were like half of what we wanted or, one person was like, it was this crazy, like 10 year out scheme of getting different payments. Yeah. It, I think there was a lot around the preparing for the sale itself, but mostly the technology I'd say that's probably the biggest thing.

[00:16:33]The biggest piece of learning I've had through these sales is getting your all of your accounts and billables, straightened out and orderly, make sure that you've got it in a single place. Like we use last pass, which was really good for helping to transfer passwords and do that in a secure way.

[00:16:49] But like there was a lot of things that we could have done better and made it more organized.

[00:16:53] Andrew Pierno: [00:16:53] What about the team size when we've sold? How big was the team?

[00:16:56]Nick Fogle: [00:16:56] Or like overall,

[00:16:59]Andrew Pierno: [00:16:59] did I, [00:17:00] did you guys have employees or was it just you two and a bunch of contractors?

[00:17:04] Nick Fogle: [00:17:04] No. And this goes back to that LLC discussion we had where it was always like going to be a passive income closely held business, I think there was an inflection point where we were like, do we doubled it down?

[00:17:15] And do we go all in, on this business? Or do we just take profits, continue to like, do what we're doing? And grow this one niche area that we're really good at, or do we expand out into other pieces of video? And we decided like the lifestyle was important to us at this time in our lives.

[00:17:30] Like we've got young kids, I was pinged out law school loan or yeah. Law school loans and yeah, I think we had, so we had one guy who did it. He was pretty much full-time, but all we used was 10 99 contractors. Cause that made it easier. Sure. And that's something we'll still continue to do unless there was like a all star employee that we needed to recruit.

[00:17:50]We had a marketing agency that did 20 hours a week, I think. And occasionally we'd hire an extra engineer to, just to help us with big projects. And the owners, there were just three of us [00:18:00] Baird and I started it and like we split the company between the two of us. And then few years in it became very clear that there was a huge dev need.

[00:18:07] And I was just getting derailed with all the dev work that was there for me. And we were both trying to do consulting and keep the business alive. So we brought a third partner on. And he was like, perfect. And we found him on Upwork. And at first it was just like a one time contract and we were like, disgust really good.

[00:18:23] Let's see if we can give them equity and like a low, a very low, hourly rate because we couldn't afford to pay much at the time. And it just worked out really well. And now Rob is part of turnkey. Like we're all partners still. That's pretty cool that relationship stayed intact. But yeah, to answer your question there's just three of us and like a couple of contractors.

[00:18:42] Andrew Pierno: [00:18:42] And do you code or was it a note? Was it no code?

[00:18:45] Nick Fogle: [00:18:45] Oh, no, it was all good. Like it was so back when we first, so we were the first ones to commercialize the audio gram product, like audio grid. When I say audio gram, the ability to convert a podcast in the video and making that something that is easy for a non-technical person to [00:19:00] do.

[00:19:00] So initially, like that's a cool story. W NYC, which is like a really big podcast organization. I think they have Radiolab and some others, they had this guy and he created this tool that allowed you to do this basic thing where you plot a audio wave form on a video and you could do a custom background.

[00:19:17]That's audio grant. And at the time I was like, our company was failing that first company I've been talking about Utah. I was like, we got to find a way to get these users like. Platform users like engaged. So maybe we can turn all their posts into videos and put them on social and don't, it would be sticky or something.

[00:19:33]Cause I found that repo and I was like, all right, I'm going to do this like little hacky thing, sit up all night and put this thing together. And It turned out like our customers didn't really care about that, but we had other people saying, how are you making these? And we got into the the GitHub repository for w NYC.

[00:19:46] And all these people were like, Hey, can somebody help me like deploy this? It was like a Docker thing. It was very complicated to deploy and most of the people, but wanting to do this were creatives who had, who weren't technical at all. Yeah, immediately, like it was just the [00:20:00] IP address at first it was like, I told Baird, I was like, it's at, 1, 9, 2 dot whatever.

[00:20:04]So like we got to, we got up to $500 in MRR by having customers go to this IP address. Like they would pay us with a WordPress plugin that we had on our marketing side. And then we would upload their design assets and I taught Baird how to commit a images. To get hub or like the link to S3 to get hub.

[00:20:22] And so he get a customer, they pay commission. Designed to to get hub, it would auto deploy. And then behind the scenes like this, drop down populates and they have their design. There was no login, no anything. That's like how humble the beginnings of wave work, because we just sunk all this time into a product that like totally flopped and failed.

[00:20:40] Like I was like not about to go ham on engineering for something else. What it uses is FFmpeg and a number of other technologies to. Plot way forums like D three note canvas, a lot of these open source libraries and it's pretty heavy lifting behind the scenes. And we were the first ones to commercialize it.

[00:20:57] There were a few competitors that came out five or six months later. And then [00:21:00] we were able to figure out a way to make it to run videos at scale and do these really long videos and generate them really quickly. With a fan out architecture. Yeah, like we were definitely innovators there and it wasn't trivial at first.

[00:21:10] I think now it's become more commoditized. So if you don't already have a huge market share, it's going to be hard to break into that. But yeah. I build it all for that first year and a half until Rob joined.

[00:21:19] Andrew Pierno: [00:21:19] Damn. I didn't realize that. That's awesome. And I love the idea of searching for.

[00:21:25] Problems instead of going on like Reddit or Twitter, like you go on get hub and find weird situations where like, on developers asking like, yo, I need this, how do I do this? And obviously it's git hub that's not the place for that.

[00:21:36] Nick Fogle: [00:21:36] I think that, I think this is like a valid way to build a company. I just haven't gone out. In fact, there was a time where I was like, like trolling for products like this. But I bet there more out there. I bet are projects out there right now that you can monetize. Oh, I see it all the time. Yeah. Are you doing well?

[00:21:52] Andrew Pierno: [00:21:52] There's there, there are projects or repos that have a shit ton of getup has stars for people that don't know.

[00:21:58] Yeah. And that's like popularity, [00:22:00] but they're super popular and they're super confusing. My, I was doing a lot of machine learning stuff in my last company, so there are a ton of like machine learning pro projects where. There's this great library, but you gotta kinda know some shit to make it work right.

[00:22:16] And just like a little UI around some open source machine learning model. I swear to God, it's all these pharmaceutical companies that are coming out as pills for dudes, that have trouble getting it up. That's a company it's it's other drug.

[00:22:28] Oh, that's a company. I feel the same way about machine learning models. It's oh, you want to do like transcription? That's a company. Oh, you want to do translation? Different companies. Yeah, just take these one by one and just go put a thin wrapper, like a thin UI around a machine learning model and go find people that need it.

[00:22:44] Nick Fogle: [00:22:44] Yeah. The creative, like this whole creator economy is ripe for that sort of thing. If you can find, I think it's getting crowded, but I think there's probably still a lot of opportunity there, but yeah, it's a, it's an interesting  model for finding viable businesses.

[00:22:55]Andrew Pierno: [00:22:55] And I know we're a bit over time here, but I'd love to just ask one final [00:23:00] question just in terms of finding product market fit is a bear finding it once is, like a miracle finding it twice.

[00:23:08] Maybe it's actually easier the second time around. I don't know, but I'd love to get your thoughts on just building a company second time around. Does it get easier? Did you have some insights, hacks or tricks?

[00:23:20] Nick Fogle: [00:23:20] Yeah, this is all top of mind right now. Particularly like flipping markets, like before all we do is B to C or like B2, like prosumer, which is like the hobbyist group that is such a different market because you're going to do a lot more organic work.

[00:23:35] You're going to do paid ads, right? User acquisition is tends to be pretty low. It's just a totally different model. And with turnkey, like what we're realizing, it's very direct. Like I would say we have product market fit because there are customers coming in and finding us, or people reach out to that are like, hell yeah, like we need this.

[00:23:54] And then we, get them hooked up and they're saving thousands of dollars a month that they weren't saving before. I think the [00:24:00] challenge is. B2B is such a timing issue. Like we keep running into this issue of timing. When we started, we thought it would just be like, wave where you just get you get, you, you get the word out there, like you have got, you've got a great product.

[00:24:10] The value prop is there. And what better value prop, can you have that to say, plug us into your software. If you're on strike, you'll save a thousand bucks next month, $2,000 next month. A lot of people I talk to are saying. I don't really have time right now. We've got other initiatives or there, there are all these different excuses and objections you encounter with B2B people that are listening, who have B2B companies like this is the most, I probably sound like the most like naive guy with obvious takeaways here.

[00:24:38] But when you've been focused on B2C for so long and you switch and you have something. Work. So just like why is this selling? This is a great product and if it was the corollary for B to C, like I think it would be crushing it. Yeah, I think every time you start off with something, it's going to be a, just a different, like a lot of times it would have been done before.

[00:24:56] It was obvious, right? Like the market and the product and the business would like they would be [00:25:00] there if if it was totally obvious. So there are going to be growing pains. I think we realized that with turnkey. It's also difficult to go from a company that is adding like 50 customers every single day to a company that has, you need to add like one a week.

[00:25:14] Like it's just a very different cadence. Even though one a week is it's great. And maybe the equivalent of what, 50 a day, where with wave, it's just a, it's a very different mentality and mindset that you have to adopt. .

[00:25:25] Andrew Pierno: [00:25:25] Well, thanks so much for your time, Nick. Appreciate your thoughts and non-legal advice.

[00:25:29]Yeah, exactly. Yep. And best of luck with turnkey. Where can people learn more about you guys?

[00:25:35] Nick Fogle: [00:25:35] Yeah. You can just go to that's, our marketing websites, And you can also reach out on Twitter. I'm Nick Fogel. That's my Twitter handle and you can reach out to me directly.

[00:25:50] My co-founder Baird Hall on  Twitter. You can DM either one of us. If you're interested in turnkey or just check out the blog, we'd love to get your [00:26:00] company hooked up. And if any listeners I'll send you a promo code. So if any listeners want to try it out, you can give them a hundred percent off for a period.

[00:26:07] Awesome. Thanks, Nick.